As I understand it, this is what occurred. Debbie was promoting eBay on her AsWas thread. Steve went there and started to put down eBay and sellers that use it as their main selling channel. Debbie took offense. It moved to the main forum. A private email of Debbie’s regarding a Webinar was circulated by Steve without her permission. This could substantially harm Debbie’s business.
An ethics complaint was filed against Debbie. Steve was actively reviewing Ethics Committe deliberations because he had access to their Forum, and sent an email to the Ethics Committe during their deliberations in an attempt to influence their decision. An ethics complaint was filed by Debbie against Steve. Steve then filed an ethics complaint against Larry citing a conflict of interest. Larry then filed an ethics complaint against Steve, stating that Steve was inappropriately trying to influence the Ethics Committee. The ethics committee made their decision on Steve vs Debbie, and Debbie vs Steve, which in turn was overruled by the BOD.
Suspensions to the BOD members were reduced. When the decision was overturned, the ethics committee was upset, stated that, and two of their members were suspended. There is alleged misconduct on the ethics committee for viewing the board forum. Suzanne posted information to this effect on her blog, as did Ina. Suzanne has sent (unfiled I believe) a cease & desist order. Debbie has sent a cease and desist and asked for an apology and transparency from the BOD and Steve. There are allegations of libel against board member(s).
How could this have been avoided? Someone stated, “making a mountain out of a molehill.” The third sentence didn’t need to happen. It easily could have been avoided. It should have been moderated, preferably, self-moderated. I call for the boards’ resignation, and an open vote of membership to fill the board. Current board members are free to remain members, and run for a position.
It is time to get this train back on the tracks.
101 comments:
I wrote this before I just resigned. Steve caused this enormous headache, and refuses to apologize for his actions which have harmed many.
You're echoing what I said in my Ethics Committee grievance.
The first problem was Steve and his behaviour. The second problem was Steve not stopping after I and others asked him to stop.
The third problem was the moderators and board not stepping in to get him to stop.
And the fourth problem was the whole thing seeming to degrade into a personal fight between me and Steve. It never would have gotten there if anything before that had stopped the Steve train.
I don't care anymore. He is a paranoid egomaniac that insults people whenever he can. The group is done. I am sorry about that because a lot of people put a lot of time atempting to make it succeed, and were torpedoed by one person. This paranoid meglomaniac needs to feel the consequences of his actions.
It's a terrible shame that it came to this. Steve and his actions are causing the demise of an otherwise good organization. His protectors are not helping matters any and need to wake up and realize the harm he is doing to them.
The thing is the problems are now much, MUCH worse, as more has arisen from this. It cannot be resolved easily, the ethics committee has their work cut out for them.
The membership needs to find a way to take back their organization.
I was a member of PESA until they wanted dues. Then I joined the IMA, primarily to share business ideas and solutions with others in my business. Then the IMA had a grand vision of a super organization and apparently needed to raise $10K for a forum system. So they turned into a dues paying org as well. I don't even remember how much it was, but to be frank, while every once in a while I might learn something from someone, I was spending most of my time providing valuable advice to others, for which I apparently needed to pay a membership fee. To add insult, while you're helping for free and paying dues to do so, you have to keep one arm free to fight off the inevitable criticizers and thread crappers who apparently live to disrupt and antagonize.
No thank you.
The dues aren't that much, and I get a kick out of reading the threads. It is a bit narrow in scope which I believe is due to the fact that many of the posters are a bit too focused.
The BOD needs to be removed, but how can that happen? Can the membership ignore the BOD? Take the IMA to a different site with new open rules?
I was put off by the number of things I was told I couldn't do as a member of IMA. Such as a mall, write a blog article, talk about any form of website selling, etc. But we were told it was the non-profit status of the site that caused most of the issues.
Wouldn't it be great to have an organization that was open to all ideas for internet selling?
Steve couldn't stop at insulting Debbie and just apologize, he went on and insulted our membership. His first apology needs to be to Debbie. Then to the group at large, and individually to everyone else.
He won't resign as he is a tool of Ben. The board needs to be fired en masse. Way to create the Perfect Storm.
How do we go about doing just that? It appears to me that he's set it all up to offer himself maximum protection.
He couldn't control himself. He set all of these events in motion. If he had stopped and apologized, this wouldn't have occurred.
I am no longer a member. The membership needs to toss him out as a board member, and the rest of the board needs to go as well. The membership then can elect who they want representing them.
Obviously, it isn't who they have now. Any dissenter has resigned (Lanae, Kim, and Larry now, I guess). It is an ugly face to present to e-commerce, membership and sponsors.
I received this sad news this afternoon. It seems that the IMA BOD has managed to run off every board member that does not back up their decisions. Unfortunately, that is not to be. I certainly understand Larry’s reasoning even though I am deeply disappointed. Frankly, I marvel that he has managed to deal with this situation without having a stroke as long as he has.
The following is the email I received:
Here’s what I sent earlier today to about 18 IMA members. It includes my resignation notice, which was pulled within 5 minutes of me posting it. The mods never replied to my original request this morning (about 5 hours ago) asking them to approve the post before I issued it.
There is nothing that prevents my post from being posted. The bylaws state:
A Director may resign at any time by giving written notice to the Board, the President or the Secretary of the Association. Unless otherwise specified in the notice, the resignation shall take effect upon receipt thereof by the Board or such officer, and the acceptance of the resignation shall not be necessary to make it effective.
I posted in the Board Forum immediately after posting in the Member Forum. There is nothing that says I can’t post in the members Forum. This is a complete and total suppression of our ability to communicate. It’s a totalitarian organization being run by a megalomaniac.
Not sure what to do at this point. Probably just time to call it quits.
We’ll certainly stay in touch.
Larry
—– Original Message —–
From: Larry Phillips
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:06 PM
Subject: My Resignation from the Board
Hello all,
This email is going to a lot of current and former IMA members who have sent expressions of support this past week (I bcc’d 18 people on this). First off, thank you for your support. I have not told the Board this yet, and this is NOT official, but I intend to resign from the Board of Directors, hopefully today. I have written the following resignation, which I intend to post in the general Forum. I have first submitted it to the moderators, to ensure that I am not in violation of any posting guideline. I will wait a while for their approval before I post, but will go ahead anyway if I don’t hear, because the bylaws do not say anything about confidential issues relating to a Board member or their resignation. Here is the post:
It is with great regret that I tender my resignation from the Board of Directors. There is a fundamental philosophical difference between myself and the other Board members. I believe that there should be a body of some sort that has the power to review certain decisions without any involvement of the Board of Directors. The other Board members disagree.
Based on that fundamental philosophical difference, I am unable to remain on a Board who believes that they should be the ultimate authority for all actions and decisions, without any sort of reasonable check and balance in place. I therefore tender my resignation from the Board effective immediately.
I will remain an active IMA member, and still believe that there is an excellent future for the IMA. Please feel free to call on me with any comments or questions.
I’m tired of fighting these people. They believe that they were elected, and can do whatever they want. They have indicated that they don’t care what the members think about certain items. They consistently hide behind a veil of confidentiality and secrecy. If I don’t take this action myself now, they will quickly find a way to remove me for some trumped up charge.
I don’t need this crap any more. My business has suffered significantly. I am now outnumbered 3-1 on the Board. My wife just walked into the room fuming, as she heard me on the phone with Steve yelling and screaming. This is not good for me, my family, my health or my business.
Hopefully, my thread won’t get pulled, but I have sent you this to make sure that the message gets out. Thank you all for your support.
Larry
Now we're down to just the three that need removing. Or do we all just demand refunds since the board was not as advertised and start anew?
Opinions?
The other three have to go as well. With $100k in the bank, it is time to start thinking of who to donate it to. This is unbelievable...
The only way that I can see this organization surviving is to assign an oversite committee to operate the group until a new board can be elected.
What a shame that the ego of one person could cause this.
Is it possible to fix this? Perhaps... An independent mediator could be brought on board. Interview and appoint a committee to oversee the organization until a new board can be elected.
Will the members trust this process? I don't know.
What I do know is that there is no transparency by the board. They attempted to point fingers everywhere but where the fingers needed to be pointed, and alienated a large portion of their leadership and membership in the process. They can't lead this organization any longer. That is obvious.
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
Substitute "apology"
This will sound paranoid, but I haven't resigned my membership due to the possibility of the need for votes. Some are complaining about posting anonymously, but I wouldn't put it past Steve to give out suspensions to sway an election. I also think he would like us all that are unhappy with the situation to quit for the same reason.
I don't think you are being paranoid. Instead of apologizing, and ending this, the BOD took every step to sweep it under the carpet. This includes screen shots of a non-BOD member in the BOD forum (easily faked by manipulating code but I have no proof).
Why couldn't an apology be made? I asked for an apology, was shat on, then that post was edited to remove the defamatory comments. I had already copied it, and have witnesses who saw it also, and have volunteered to go to bat for me.
I would not have resigned and started this blog if an apology was forthcoming, and I wasn't defamed in public. Enough is enough. They need to knock this off. Protect yourself.
Sadly people think this is a Steve versus Debbie issue. Read Suzanne’s blogs and start connecting some gaping dots.
IMA’s dysfunction goes far deeper than what’s been blogged about and has been going on for ages. Too many people blindly trusted the BOD and had blinders on. Those who spoke up for months and months and months about concerns regarding IMA were bashed as being troublemakers, moles, etc.
If only more had complained earlier, things could have been different. Instead, some of the biggest complainers today chose to idly sit back and privately support the “vocal minority” who took a disproportionate amount of beatings and blame for speaking up.
The BOD is already working on handpicking replacements for those who resigned, just like they did in the old forum when David, Bruce, Tom, etc. resigned from the BOD.
The whole thing reminds me of this
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
The truth shall set ye free. First you need to learn to spot the forest from the trees.
NOTICE OF SPECIAL MEETING
This group is a special meeting to be called by the members.
This special meeting is called to take place July 6,2008 and
commencing on July 10,2008. Please send this notice to all IMA
members. The meeting will take place at
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/imembers/
Reason for the meeting:
1. Because the IMA Board is now down to 3 members, we feel the Board
is crippled.
2. We also believe that there has been improper running of the
organization.
3. We need 114 members to login to enact the following rule:
....................
A. We would like to take a vote on removing the Board and calling for a new election as proposed by others letting the Board run again if they like.
b. We would like to assign a committee of members to find an impartial
review panel for hire using up to $10,000 of the funds from the IMA's
kitty (currently 78K). The review panel will review our bylaws for
issues and determine what they should say, privacy issues, what is
private and not private and other rules for running the organization
for the members by the members.
--------------------------
According to the Bylaws we can call this meeting with 114 members are present during it.(see below)
but if fifty percent (50%) of the voting members shall meet at any time and place, either within or without the State, and consent to the holding of a meeting, such meeting shall be valid without cause or notice, and at such meeting, any corporate action may be taken.
Evidently, I am still being defamed in the board forum. I would suggest that the three board members cease and desist. My next step will be to hire an attorney (one of my best friends lives next door and is one of the best PI attorney's in our state). He gets back in a couple of hours from vacation, and I will have him subpoena the board form records.
How can these people be so dumb? All electronic communications leave a record. Instead of doing what's right, and stepping down, they continue to resort to insults and subterfuge.
To the members of IMA
First off it has been an eventful past week to say the least. I can assure you the board members have served IMA with nothing but the best intentions of the members and the organization in mind. We have always been above board, transparent and never did anything that was not in the best interests of the organization or for personal gain. In fact quite the contrary as most of us have spent thousands of volunteer hours, and even used our own monies to conduct IMA business, never mind the fact that IMA has taken away from time with our families’ friends and businesses.
I will not be addressing the current issues that caused the controversy even though I know most of you want all the facts and details. The board from which I am a part of has a policy in place for protecting the privacy of our members and I believe this is the proper policy and I assure you all the board members agree as well and this was discussed intensely and was voted on unanimously. All I can say is you will simply have to trust us that unless something rose to the level where is questioned someone’s integrity, was illegal or a criminal act we will not discuss details of any disputes.
I spent over 20 years dealing in HR issues and I have never seen this done anywhere that details and specifics were disclosed on minor incidents or disputes. The senate does not release information if the sanction a member and they are elected officials who work for the people. So I ask members to honor our policy of privacy and understand the board thought about this policy long and hard before adapting it and we are convinced it is the right thing to have in place.
It was amazing to me how the media was all over this thing. I asked myself how successful could IMA have been if the media was to give us 10% of the attention they recently gave us for the positive things we do. So for those of you who contacted the media and were responsible for the avalanche of press and attention during a rough time, please continue these energies during the positive times and help us to continue to build IMA.
We have built a successful professional trade association here and we intend to move forward with what we have built and make it even more successful as we move forward. We have lots of smart people within IMA and we have lots of great ideas. Distractions and bickering only sidetrack the organization from moving forward.
I will be the first to admit that I have had my share of disputes and debates with other members within the organization. For that I would like to sincerely apologize to all members and especially those on the receiving end of one of my squabbles. Believe it or not I do have a lot of insight into my own behavior and I know my strengths and weaknesses.
I am making a pledge to all members that I will do my best to control this and be respectful and courteous in my communications. I also ask you all do the same in return. Again like I stated earlier I do have insight into my own behavior and I just like anyone else here does not like being attacked or on the receiving end of a disparaging comment. So often when I feel attacked I come back and come back hard. It is because I am outspoken and come back hard it stings a lot and apparently offends other members and distracts from the organization and diminishes the fact we have accomplished a lot good things together.
So I am asking the members of IMA to unite and put the past behind us and help us move forward and do so in a professional, courteous, and respectful manner. I will lead by example. I would hope that the members who were quick to criticize can also look back and see some of the positive. Those members who I have had your full support throughout the good and bad times, I thank you. I was elected by the members of IMA to the board and elected as president by my peers and I intend to honor and fulfill my duties as an elected representative.
There is a definitely a need for a strong professional sellers group. I think together we have built a great foundation by achieving non profit status, putting on 2 successful conferences with plans started to do a third, having this IMA hosted forum and the list goes on. I would also add if you are here to be a part of a professional trade association and help us shape the organization for the betterment of all, then please stay and be a part of it and offer us your ideas and suggestions.
I would like to close by saying thanks to all the board members who have worked tirelessly and gave up precious time for the IMA. The same holds true to all committee members who have done the same. And also to you the members as of course without you there would be no IMA.
Steve
1Busyman's Inc
Sorry, ain't buying it. It appears to have been written for the most part by Steve, but edited by Ben. This isn't an apology. It is simply a blanket excuse for his actions. Should I rip it to shreds?
Steve: Have you treated Deb, Susie, Ann or myself with one modicum of respect? I can answer that, "NO!" That was a BS apology. Go have Ben rewrite it for you. Stop posting disparaging comments about me in any forum. Who's the loser? I call for your resignation. Nothing less.
By all means, rip away. After the BOD amending the By-Laws tonight to prevent a member meeting, and then an offer of refunds to prevent votes, the BOD has proven without a shadow of a doubt that they only care about themselves, not IMA nor its members.
Membership can overrule them. It was wise you remained a member. Call for an immediate vote to oust them. They cannot legally take the monies that are there. I shredded the lame apology on the PS board.
"First off it has been an eventful past week to say the least." It has just begun.
"I will not be addressing the current issues that caused the controversy" Check my blog, why not?
"and was voted on unanimously By 3 board members" because you ran the rest off.
Regarding press... Sorry, ain't gonna happen.
"I am making a pledge to all members that I will do my best to control this and be respectful and courteous in my communications. I also ask you all do the same in return. Again like I stated earlier I do have insight into my own behavior and I just like anyone else here does not like being attacked or on the receiving end of a disparaging comment." Get real...that is the root of the problem, and you'll never change.
"It was amazing to me how the media was all over this thing." Really?
"It is because I am outspoken and come back hard it stings a lot and apparently offends other members and distracts from the organization and diminishes the fact we have accomplished a lot good things together." Apparently? Get real...
"respectful manner" Again, get real. You insult everyone.
"I intend to honor and fulfill my duties as an elected representative." Sorry, time to resign. You proved you wouldn't change.
"There is a definitely a need for a strong professional sellers group. I think together we have built a great foundation by achieving non profit status, putting on 2 successful conferences with plans started to do a third, having this IMA hosted forum and the list goes on. I would also add if you are here to be a part of a professional trade association and help us shape the organization for the betterment of all" This is the true part.
Posted: Mon 07 Jul, 2008 04:57 [1] Post subject: Filing Complaint with Florida Attorney General’s Office
——————————————————————————–
We now believe that it is in the best interest of the membership of the IMA to begin filing complaints with the Economic Crimes Division of the Florida Attorney General’s Office.
We want them to receive multiple complaints tomorrow. You can fill out the complaint report by going here:
[url]
http://myfloridalegal.com/Contact.nsf/Contact?OpenForm&Section=Economic_Crimes[/url]
The official address of the IMA is :
Internet Merchant Association
11792 Osprey Point Circle
Wellington, FL 33449-8367
phone: 561 615-1471
The three remaining Board members are:
Steve C. Grossberg
sgrossberg@budgetvideogames.com
Ben Mandell
ben@avianaorlando.com
Cathy Aggelopoulos
info@visibilityunlimited.com
Under question or comment, you should state that The Internet Merchants Association is a Florida Corporation.
The primary complaint is that a Special Meeting was called by the membership to be held online, since IMA members are located throughout the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. After the meeting was announced, the Board of Directors changed the bylaws regarding where the meeting could be conducted, in an attempt to stop the meeting. Please note in your complaint that 3 of the 6 remaining Board of Directors resigned from the organization in the last 4 days.
If you prefer, you can call the Florida Attorney General’s Office at 850-414-3300.
We need as many of you as possible to file this complaint. We believe the actions of the Board of Directors to be illegal, and need to make sure that we have multiple reports into the Florida Attorney General’s Office, so that it gets the appropriate attention.
Board of Directors and Moderators - Please note that any removal or modifications to this post may be legally considered as grounds for obstruction of justice.
The link appears to be invalid as I attempted to file a complaint. I will post back when I have a working link, or would appreciate if one of the readers would correspond with it.
Thank you Tom. Everyone should realize that these same problems go way back and even to the details of removing posts, acting like thugs, insulting members...all of it. Sad.
Hi,
This is Larry Phillips.
I have now been kicked out of the IMA. Since I am no longer a member, I no longer feel the need to retain confidentiality. SO here are some facts for you not included in Tom's account.
First off Tom's account of what happened is completely accurate. So you know, the Ethics Committee voted Steve a 10 day suspension, and Debbie a warning. This was because Steve's comments were seen to be potentially damaging to Debbie's reputation and to the reputation of her company. But we felt Debbie's infraction was a mistake due to not understanding the rules. Steve's cronies on the Board changed Debbie's warning to a 4 day suspension, and Steve's suspension from 10 days to 3 days. Typical of Steve's win at all costs mentality.
Nest, I thought a deal had been arranged for all four of us (the remaining Board members to resign). I spent two hours on the phone on Saturday afternoon. At the end of that call, I was to write the resignation. Both Steve and Cathy wanted out as soon as possible. They only wanted to stay a few days, because they didn't want anything to do with the IMA any more. I agreed to stay on as the transition person, help a new Board get selected and in place, and then I was to leave also. Four hours later, I was asked to join a conference call, and Steve and Cathy had changed their minds, evidently talked out of doing the right thing by Ben.
This is all about winning. This is not what is about in the best interest of the IMA. They don't care about that. They used to put the IMA first, but that stopped about 10 days ago, and it strictly became about Steve, and about winning. They have allowed the organization to implode. All along, I have thought about the organization first. I wrote an apology, simply so we could take the high road and move on. But then when I suggested a check and balance needed to be put in place, I was immediately shot down, because the Board was elected, the Board is the ultimate authority, the Board will make all decisions, and the Board doesn't care what the membership wants or thinks. That's when I had to resign.
What a shame.
Take II
Round and round the circle goes. Errieee... History repeating itself. Now is where Larry splits off and creates a even greater trade asoc. that knows how to do it better than the goons at the helm now.
Kirk:
I don't believe so. Larry and I have spoken and neither of us want to do this. We had the money, and should have hired an executor director. Possibly, this could have been stopped before it started.
Kim, Lanae, Larry, Donna and several others have been removed from membership. These people volunteered countless hours for the organization.
There are provisions for removal, and I would urge the remaining members to accomplish this as quickly as possible if you have any desire to maintain IMA as a valuable trade association.
It's come down to childish stubborness on the BOD. They seem to think that if "I can't have it then nobody else can." I genuinely believe they'd rather destroy IMA than see someone else at the helm.
Frankly, they have so many people with their noses stuck up their arses that believe they are proving their unfaltering loyalty so they will be appointed as BOD members, that they might conceivably win an election. But no, they won't even try. They must show us all that it is their way and only their way! Nanny-nanny-boo-boo.
I'm astonished. I left high school decades ago, but some things never change.
Those excuses made by Steve today went beyond the pale. Incredibly, there are still a few koolaid drinkers left that must not have two synapses in their heads to make a shake that slurped it up. One in particular doesn't surprise me since the poor thing just can't help it, but a few of the others just dumbfound me.
Nanny-nanny-boo-boo
ROFL! I actually used that term a few weeks ago - during a BOD's meeting - to describe the way Steve acts.
And yes, the yes men are still in there. But there are so few of them. You know what's really sad? Go back and read the original group thread that is on ebay. It's such an inspiration. Everyone wanted something good. They kept stating they didn't want to repeat mistakes....
Well, there ya go!
IMA President Steve Grossberg posted this to the IMA forums today:
I know I have thought long and hard about this. The conclusion I reached is I have nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to run and hide from and I was elected to my position. During times of crisis strong leadership is what is needed. I think my past track record shows I can walk the walk and not just talk the talk. I feel the same holds true for Ben and Cathy.
So we intend to provide that strong leadership as this is our duty. I do not think it is fair to call for anyone's resignation without knowing the facts. Some has chosen to resign for various reasons, and it is my opinions leaders should not resign from a leadership role while the going gets tough unless they did wrong as to me it is an admission of guilt.
You see the lynch mob mentality and media frenzy, crazy far fetched accounts of things from hobbyist blogs etc has started already days ago without knowing the facts, could you imagine how it would appear if we resigned.
Make no mistakes, this is a crisis, but also make no mistakes strong leadership will pull us out and emerge us as a stronger organization.
Thanks to all of you who have expressed your trust and support in us.
Guess that doesn't apply to me. I attempted to get an apology. When the group implodes by Friday at the latest, the membership will need to decide who to donate the $107,000 to. The $29,000 payable I believe is for room rental at the ASD/AMD show for which we have never been billed, and don't anticipate a bill.
IMA Financials
http://s250.photobucket.com/albums/gg280/imaorg/?action=view¤t=ima1stquarter2008.jpg
Not all who remain are slurping up the koolaid. In fact, I hear the infamous "mole" still remains lmao
without knowing the facts,
I have more facts than you realize. I did save most everything I needed to save before I was removed from various areas of the board, and then all together. I did need to CYA, and I knew it.
could you imagine how it would appear if we resigned.
Yes, it would look like you all FINALLY decided to do the right thing.
By the way... My thanks goes out to the mole, and those not drinking the kool-aid. Here I thought having a mole in the organization was a bad thing. Amazing how the tables turn in a just a few weeks.
You know if there is true transparency, and if this is a true non profit, you shouldn't need a mole in the org...all would be open and aboveboard. The sign that this org is operating outside the limits is just that kind of secrecy and paranoia. You know there is only one person who has used the word "guilty". IF the BOD resigned, then they would not look guilty, they would be doing the right thing for the first time. I am SO glad I didn't give my hard earned money to this group.
Latest quote from the boss:
I appreciate your input here but most of what is posted to these sites is far from the truth to put it mildly. We will not be going after the professional type of media outlets like auctionbytes etc, but the aswas blogs, sportinggoodsusa, agenius etc. Our attorney today strongly advised that this was the #1 priority for us to accomplish and he stated this over and over that swift and decisive action is needed.
We will also have the zero tolerance policy on this going forward as you suggested but I am certain after soon people will understand that this stuff is a criminal offense
_________________
Steve
Grow up Steve. All you needed to do was apologize. Then you needed to resign because you wouldn't apologize. Now, you need to pull your head out. I WILL SUE YOU. You take it one step farther, and there we are. I have the ammunition, you are firing blanks.
Steve GROSSman is trying to tell the membership now that he will be wasting the IMAs money on an attorney to sue this and other websites for publishing his letter to the members.
Someone needs to remind this tool that none of the members signed non-disclosure agreements. Any copyright he holds to the letter itself is not being violated by discussing the letter. In fact, reprinting it for the purpose of discussion is pretty clearly protected under the Fair Use Doctrine.
Let's see, the attorney will cost $400 an hour (probably more but let's underestimate). Steve says they had a conference call yesterday and another scheduled for tomorrow. Then he'll have the attorney draft cease-and-desist letters at about an hour each. My guess is by July 11 IMA will have a $10,000 legal bill.
NOW THAT IS MONEY WELL SPENT
Yep, apparently when you join the IMA you give up your rights to free speech forever..... Whatever!
What I find truly sad is that the money they would absolutly not spend to do anything good is now going to be spent to defend those three, or go after people who dared to speak up.
IMA Members Privacy
Members
As mentioned in another post we have consulted with legal council from the law firm Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP http://www.bsfllp.com/index.html
The IMA takes your privacy very seriously as you recently found out and others will as well in the very near future . We have been told that posts from this forum and other information obtained from this forum are appearing out there on non members and former member’s blogs.
So please list any site you are aware of where there is posting private information from our forum. It does not have to be a copied and pasted post, but any information found on a web site other then an IMA owned web site where you feel the information was obtained as a result of coming from someone who is now or was a member of IMA.
We will be taking any and all legal action necessary to ensure the privacy of our members is respected.
_________________
Steve
And you can't understand that a simple apology was necessary? Get over yourself....
Steve's post reminds of the scene in Animal House. When the going gets tough, the tough get going...
I think any attempt to suppress the news and the rights of journalist and bloggers will be met with a stern and immediate overwhelming response.
I don't speak for the ACLU or first amendment rights groups but I do know how to contact them for their opinion on this type of intimidation.
See my article here: http://snurl.com/2uvam
If you do not wish to renew with the IMA follow the instructions here
---->To cancel your subscription:<----
Sign into your PayPal account
Go to your Profile
Under Fiancial Information the last item is Pay List
Click that and follow the instructions to remove the IMA.
I made a post on the IMA boards that was immediately yanked. I inquired as to the reasons the “Steven Grosberg” is listed as the organization for imamerchant.org
I went to http://domains.whois.com/domain.php and did a whois lookup on IMA. It has “Steven Grosberg” listed as the Registrant Organization, Admin Organization, and Tech Organization instead of “Internet Merchants Association”.
Domain ID:D132978514-LROR
Domain Name:IMAMERCHANT.ORG
Created On:15-Nov-2006 23:51:22 UTC
Last Updated On:16-Apr-2008 19:26:27 UTC
Expiration Date:15-Nov-2013 23:51:22 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:GODA-025257199
Registrant Name:Steven Grossberg
Registrant Organization:Steven Grossberg
Registrant Street1:11792 Osprey Pointe Cir
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Wellington
Registrant State/Province:Florida
Registrant Postal Code:33467
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.5616151472
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:+1.5616151461
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:
Admin ID:GODA-225257199
Admin Name:Steven Grossberg
Admin Organization:Steven Grossberg
Admin Street1:11792 Osprey Pointe Cir
Admin Street2:
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Wellington
Admin State/Province:Florida
Admin Postal Code:33467
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.5616151472
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:+1.5616151461
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:
Tech ID:GODA-125257199
Tech Name:Steven Grossberg
Tech Organization:Steven Grossberg
Tech Street1:11792 Osprey Pointe Cir
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Wellington
Tech State/Province:Florida
Tech Postal Code:33467
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.5616151472
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:+1.5616151461
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:
Name Server:ns2.totalchoicehosting.com
Name Server:ns1.totalchoicehosting.com
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Name Server:
Very telling, isn’t it?
And just for posterity’s sake in case they decide it’s time to change it since it so appropriately shows Steve’s attitude about it being HIS organization, a screenshot is located at:
http://s351.photobucket.com/albums/q468/IMAhistory/
Since I made this post, and then another asking why it was deleted, and suggested they give me my full refund if they don’t want my posts, I am no longer a member. I have yet to receive my refund, of course.
I received a partial refund, but not the full amount. When I first clicked the "trial" link on their website, after reading that I could view the forums and see if I liked the organization, I found that the link took me directly to PayPal to pay $129. I thought it odd, but expected they would refund my money if I deemed the benefits not to be worth the money. Much to my surprise when I emailed the organization, Steve replied and did not offer me a refund. Even Cathy was surprised that I was not offered a refund.
I have put up with what I feel to be a sham of an organization for the last 5 months. These latest actions of the BOD that are all about themselves instead of the members is more than I can sit idly by and accept. I have demanded the rest of my money and will seek recourse to get it if it is not granted.
While writing this, I received the following from the organization in response to a demand for the rest of my money:
Please direct any and all future correspondence to IMA’s attorneys
Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP
Michael Kosnitzky
100 SE Second Street
Suite 2800
Miami, FL 33131
These are the attorney's IMA hired with MEMBER money to protect the BOD and go after members that post to these blogs. They would rather spend member money for attorney fees than refund 5 months of dues totalling $53.75 they owe me.
Great organization, isn't it?
BEWARE.... Steve has issued a press release telling everyone to shut up.
http://allbusinessauctions.wordpress.com/2008/07/08/press-release-for-immediate-release-internet-merchants-association-president-threatens-1st-amendment-rights-of-bloggers-journalists/
You know what I find truly sad and almost unforgivable–many of you members watched the head of IMA and other IMA members insult and rip apart posters on the powerseller board repeatedly in the past year or so. Each time there was a thread started on the powerseller board regarding IMA, other powersellers would ask direct questions or make comments, and instead of being treated with respect and in a professional manner, they were degraded, insulted, belittled and ravaged by the head of IMA and other members. Now you are all screaming at how rude the head of IMA is??? After it was clear how horrible he was to innocent posters asking simple questions about IMA? Sorry, but all of this sudden awakening is long overdue and doesn’t say much about the membership to begin with. And I will never trust or respect the people who sat around and just watched innocent posters get ripped apart for no reason at all.
So, I have a question for all of you innocent victims of this IMA mess. Who is more guilty???? the head of IMA and other members who were rude and nasty, or the members of this group/cult who just sat around and watched others be ripped apart on their on private board and on the powerseller board over the past year?
If you sat around and just watched, you closed your eyes and sold your soul just to belong to this group/cult!
Fair point, Get Real. You don't know how many times many of us attempted to rein him in. This was the last straw. Then he claims he has changed? Can a leopard change its spots?
Can a leopard change its spots?
Um, this leopard doesn't see his spots. You can only change your behavior if you acknowledge that it's wrong to begin with. This is an individual who acts impetuously by lashing out at people, and then apologizes later when he realizes it may wreck havoc on IMA or makes him look like an idiot?
Actually he doesn't apologize later. When has he apologized?
I have been off the PS board for nearly two years - I'm generally not a chat board type person - but I've heard that he has made life hell for some there. He did it on the IMA boards as well. There was always another BOD following along cleaning up his messes.
Well, actually, in the past he has apologized to some people. But then turned around and did exactly the same thing over again.
I have heard from several people that the number of loyal followers is somewhere between 4 & 8. Plus the three remaining BOD's. That leaves a party of - maybe 13.
Others will stay, there is no doubt. There are probably 30% of the members who don't have a clue any of this has happened. There are inactive members who login now and then, or perhaps the higher level members who don't bother with the IMA except at conference time. These are not the core of the IMA, they don't contribute, they don't volunteer. They are members just the same, but you need to have core members. Members who will give of themselves, and they need to care about the organization. There are few left who do.
What will happen to the IMA in the future is what is important. The IMA BOD's has a habit of having a meltdown about once every 2 - 3 months. The President gets into it with someone, it's what he does. The BOD's has to come in behind him and clean up the mess.
I am not a huge follower of chat boards, and basically that is what the IMA is. But I believed enough to give time; to help build the IMA to more. It was a tough road, and it was actually a pretty short one also - I was only on that road for a few months. During that time I feel we accomplished almost nothing. There were a couple issues where the by-laws were changed because a member was doing something that was questionable to the IMA (yes, my hindsight is 20/20 - but it's too late - I should have listed more to the members complaining). A wiki was announced, didn't happen. There was leavingfeedback.com - that was good. Talks of a marketing firm to promote the IMA - didn't happen. Talk to spend $30 or so a month on Google adwords - didn't happen.
Suggested items that went no where - didn't even make it to a vote: A booth at ebay live - nothing major, just an area for members to meet, a way for the IMA to recruit. Looking at displaying at couple of other small conferences that were offered by our various gold and platinum members. Every suggestion was smacked down - the answer? IMA doesn't pay for things, we're a non-profit. Sometimes a suggestion was ridiculed - as if the person making the suggestion was unimportant and had nothing of value to say. This happened in board meetings, and on the Board of directors chat forum. BOD's were told their contacts were unimportant, or not as important as a different BOD's contacts, or told they didn't need to make contact with our partners. You see, the thing is two of the three that are running the show now have pretty much always ran the show. Because they have allowed no one else to do anything but be grunt men. So, they are likely claiming at this point that THEY were the only board members that mattered anyway. That they contributed more than the others. If there is any truth to that statement it is because they wanted it that way, and forced it to stay that way.
In the end I am sad, sad to leave this behind. Sad to see what has become of the IMA. Perhaps the IMA was always a lame duck, but I was trying to help make it stronger. Steve, Ben, and Cathy will NEVER admit they did wrong here. They are so far into this that I suppose they can't. It's truly a sad state. Remove those in charge. Reclaim your organization and make it stronger. You PAID to be part of this organization, is this what you signed up for?
IMA members have spoken up inside and outside of IMA about steve and his comments as well as the "mindless cheerleading" and "koolaid slurping" that occurred in nearly every IMA thread on the PS board. In fact, many IMA members complained to the BOD about IMA having issues ages before these latest "festivities" started. Banging my head on a brick wall would have been a far more productive use of my time.
However, after nearly 2 years of seeing the "same old, same old" threads of yay IMA, if you do not go to the conference, you are not serious about your business or yay IMA helped me so much but I just cannot give one concrete example, etc., it gets tiring being the "nail constantly sticking up from the board." Not everyone lives for conflict; some of us try to have lives and would rather spend more time with our families, friends, and businesses than constantly bickering on the PS or other boards. My pets "take direction" better than some of the IMA BOD, so why would I waste time going around in circles with IMA members when I can teach Fido a new trick with far less grief?
OK, so I am hopeless. I KNOW I KNOW, give up! GIVE UP! THERE IS NO HOPE! I'm trying to let go, really I am.
This behavior has to cease. Please, mole. post details once they come to light. I want to know how the lawsuit is progressing.
Other than the utter disregard for other people, and the failure to take ownership of one's actions, what really frosts me is that this was done to a vendor on a vendors thread. Hello, what are you thinking?
Okay, I'll be the mole. Here is what has been happening: Any and all posts raising any dissent at all are squashed immediately. Tonight a post came up asking if 10-12 people were running for the board would the three members open up their seats and see who wins - the post was deleted immediately. Super-fast. So no on one there really knows what is going on. At all.
Also, the cheerleaders are in full cheerleader mode. You know how in the last month every thread would get crapped on with a "eBay sucks" reply? Well now the same three people (you can guess which three) reply to every un-moderated thread with a cheer for the IMA and how great they are and how they are better than the rest and how much they are all learning from each other. It's enough to make you sick.
Some people are speaking up in support but you get the distinct feeling that they don't really have any idea what is going on. If you are not on that board every hour you miss things, and even then. Just think if you went out of town for the long weekend, took Monday to get caught up, then logged onto IMA today. You would only see that a few unruly members tried to take over the group but it's all over. You might not know anything is happening at all. I can't wait until someone like Dustin comes back. He will be a good test case--- loves the old IMA we all knew but has a head on his shoulders. He won't know even 1/10th of what is going on. He will only see the endless threads of hugs and self-congratulations.
It's not even like dissent isn't even tolerated... if the tone of your post makes it seem like you have a serious suggestion or question, then it is deleted immediately. I've seen childish stuff, but I've never ever seen anything like this.
I'm not revealing anything confidential in this, I signed no non-disclosure agreement, and my post above is actually pretty vague. But I'm sure someone wants to use IMA funds to sue me over it anyway. HILARIOUS!
Who is going to remain?
Lurkers who don't know what is going on, the holy trinity, and the mole. Plus a few sidekicks who won't (not "don't" but refuse to) understand how simple it was if one ego sucked it up and said, "I am sorry."
Here is some fun stuff. A new member joined IMA tonight. They posted asking what IMA could do for them. No one replied. Then someone in a position to know PM'd me that the new member had emailed in asking for a refund. I guess the word is out: DON'T JOIN IMA
John, I sent a message to two people with the request that they ask, them if 10-12 people were running for the board would the three members open up their seats in a fair and open election.
One I sent it to forwarded it to 2 of the 3 in charge and I was immediately expelled from the group. So much for private messages and evidently IMA's confidentiality only goes one way.
The other person must have posted the message. I say yea for her!
By the way, are you sure the person who posted "What can IMA do for me" was new tonight? That post was started yesterday and I believe it was someone who was duped into membership with the trial thing. I'd have to go back to my notes and check to be sure.
Connie
Now FORMER member because I asked for a fair and open election.
Well I'm sure all the zombies are sleeping well tonight knowing they have peace in their land.
It's so much easier to keep the peace when you just get rid of everyone except those who wear blinders.
No, the new person was definitely new. As in just signed up Tuesday evening.... and canceled Tuesday evening.
To IMA Members:
Please see my guest blog post:
http://allbusinessauctions.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/former-ethics-committee-and-board-member-of-the-internet-merchants-association-speaks-out-what-now/#comments
There are some things you can try. They're outlined in that blog. And you can still file a complaint with the Florida Attorney-General.
Other than that, I'm not sure there's much else you can do. A good portion of the "helping" type brain trust is gone. You will now have mostly bashers, ego maniacs, and rude people. So I can't imagine how there would be much value. Think about the calibre of the people who are gone, either voluntarily or otherwise. Then think about the ones that have stayed. And think about the type of mentality that both groups possess. What do you think? Is there value there? Decide for yourself.
One other add-on. Don't be fooled by the ones staying. Many of them have stated that they're only staying because they believe their vote can make a difference. Don't know if this has been tried yet, and how quickly it will get pulled, but why don't you ask this question in the member Forum:
"How many of you plan on paying your dues when it comes up for renewal?" A reasonable question, and one that would help you make a decision.
If the organization is so wonderful, they shouldn't be afraid of a post like that. Matter of fact, they should welcome it. Try it.
Should we take bets on how long it stays up before it gets pulled? And if it doesn't get pulled, should we take bets on how many people reply in the affirmative?
The board of Ima has been invited to a national radio show.
http://allbusinessauctions.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/national-radio-show-offers-open-mic-to-internet-merchants-association-board-members-and-president/
I was a newer and not-so-involved IMA member. Well, actually, I still am but I asked to be removed and refunded.
But I wonder something about money.
How are/were financial statements handled? I mean, is there periodic reporting to members?
Are books open to members?
Does IMA pay "rent" of any sort for use of its physical location (the prez's house)?
Has there ever been an audit?
Who has access to the bank account?
How many signers are there on checks?
These question don't allege or assume anything. I truly don't know the answers and have been wondering about them.
Daisy,
I'll answer as best I can. With all the totalitarian, inappropriate behavior that went on, I think most, if not all of the Finances were handled appropriately. Steve is the Treasurer as well as the President. The IMA hired a CPA last year, and the quarterly report is available to all members. I don't believe there is a bank account. I don't think checks were written frequently, if at all, because the only expenses were the website, and the CPA, and some other small miscellaneous charges. I do not believe that there has been an audit, and I believe that there is only one authorized signer - Steve. He never charged rent, and frankly, most Board members paid their own expenses.
So while there are tons of problems, I truly don't believe Finances are one of them.
I agree with Larry. I posted a link to the 1st quarterly report, but I believe you can only post limited html. The link doesn't appear to work. Steve didn't mismanage the finances.
The strategy appears to be to bite your tongue (which should have happened in the first place), and hope this blows over. Remove dissenters, then attempt to regrow the group. They have enough money that this could be realized.
Lawsuits and cease and desist orders have not materialized. Guess you can't muzzle even independent press. Score one for Larry Flynt.
Another thought I posted on the PS forum regarding the money is that they could have a board retreat in Cancun. Heck, with 20 members left, they could bring the membership.
sgusa, Did I understand you to say that there is no bank account? If not, where is the money being kept? I assumed the books weren't cooked, but where is the actual money and is it liquid?
And is it insured? And under the IMA's name?
No, they have two bank accounts. I can't post links here (I tried). Maybe I'll go post a link on one of the other blogs.
Steve is quite meticulous about the money. He got in a tussle with someone over a dime not balancing with his accounting (he was right, and the other person quit).
Larry,
With all do respect; what you posted regarding historical organizational finances is so beyond the bounds of propriety its not even funny. To be sure I'm not accusing or suggesting anyone has been stealing money, but JEBBERS MAN!, EVERY SINGLE ORGANIZATONAL EXPENSE SHOULD BE PAID FROM AN ORGANIZATON ACCOUNT ON A COUNTER-SIGNED CHECK ATTACHED TO AN APPROVED VOUCHER!!!
I'm a stupid, nobody-nothing in the retail world but I'm flabbergasted that with so many people supposedly involved with non-profit organizations that the most simple and obvious deficiencies got past so many people.
Sapper, there is a checking account, and a paypal account. Both keep a balance - both are in the IMA's name.
The ledgers are very accurage
It was an accident that I posted as "Daisy" before. That was me, Donna, "SofterSilk", who asked those financial questions.
The accounting procedures do not sound proper. They raise a lot more red flags. That the one and only person with signing authority (improper) is "meticulous" raises even more red flags.
I urge anyone with the ability to do so to take charge of this and get all financials both reviewed AND into compliance.
BTW, I requested a refund. After I wrote this blog comment, my membership did get revoked but I have not received a refund.
Whose credit card # is backing up the Paypal account Tom, do you know? Or does IMA have its own credit card? Sapper is absolutely right. Sapper, I left because of how things were being done, not that anything was dishonest, but that it was outside the boundaries of good financial practice as knew them from my non profit experience. Several of us tried to institute a financial policy to no avail. Running an online business doesn't necessary lead anyone to know sound principles of management. That is the biggest thing I learned from these so called trade groups. The difference between making money and truly being a business person in it for the long haul is a big one.
That the books may *appear* accurate does not mean that they *are*.
Does the state of Florida do any auditing of non-profits' financial records?
I doubt it unless they have cause...
What is the org's tax filing status vis a vis its Federal return?
501c6
Since I was on the board at tax time I did get a copy of all the current financials at that time.
I'm not saying the way things are done are right. Honestly I don't know what is proper for a non-profit. AND I remember the financial committee or whatever you all were Susie... When it was you, Lanae and Chuck. Oh, geesh... What a mess that was.
You know, hindsight really is 20/20. I think about all the messes I saw, all I heard about (before I was involved), and all I saw. Guess it's good to be gone...
NO MORE IMA KOOL-AID FOR ME!
The company that has the most right to se is Kraft or General Mills, or whoever owns the rights to Kool-Aid. Talk about having a reputation besmirched :-)
Lots of comments on the blogs tonight. Perhaps someone wishes to post their location in other seller groups?
Sorry if I misinformed, but yes, there is a checking account, and the primary reason a CPA was hired was so that she could manage the Finances. To be honest, I'm only assuming that the checking account is single signature. I've never seen a check. Once again, I'm certain that the books will stand up to all scrutiny. Best practices - I don't know. I have very little expertise there. But when I received copies of the Financial statements, I could easily identify all expenditures, because there were so few of them. As pat-time volunteers with our own businesses to run, you need to pick and call those things to drill down on, and I truly believed that the Finances were fine, and didn't need further review.
I'm 52 and was taught from a very young age that a person who lies about the small things, will do so about the big ones, too.
This is one reason why I raise this issue of finances. I don't know if they are proper or not.
However, the fact that a person who has been caught in lies, both big and small, has full control over them, and who does not want to give up that control in the form of relinquishing his board membership to the position, makes me wonder. NO accusations! Just asking the question.
I feel that it would be prudent for the membership to seize control of all things financial, and get a CPA in to first examine every penny, and then to set up a structure where at least 2 people have control (and neither of those people being known-liars).
If I understand that there is $78,000 available, such an expenditure would be prudent - certainly more so than a pricy lawyer to go after bloggers expressing their opinions.
- Donna/SofterSilk
Just want you to all know that Steve had scheduled to do a national internet radio show this Saturday, and then backed out a day later. I agreed to fill in. While I can't answer as many questions as Steve, I can and will answer questions about things that happened prior to Monday. Here are links about this:
http://allbusinessauctions.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/breaking-news-internet-merchants-association-president-backs-out-of-confirmed-interview/
http://allbusinessauctions.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/larry-phillips-live-on-the-air-filling-in-for-ima-president/
My offer still stands that if Steve would prefer to do this, I'll back out. I'm only doing this because he canceled. Here's a link to the show:
http://www.live365.com/stations/ebayandbeyond?site=pro
I believe the show starts at 10 am ET, and I'll be on at about 10:15. Please listen, and call in with your questions.
Be careful! We know who will be listing to anything that can be fed to lawyers eager to pursue a slander case. I would only say:
* facts that have solid backing, and
* thoughts prefaced by, "This is my opinion".
One radio (actual radio not internet) host I know who was approached about the story would not touch it due to legal issues.
I believe it would be libel. Everything written has been the truth which is a pure defense against libel. Go for it. Attempt to squelch 1st amendment rights. Best of luck with a suit, and you will keep this nonsense going on in front of potential sponsors. Shoot yourself in the foot again for want of an apology. How can you be so stupid?
Libel/slander, doesn't matter. The point is that he announced that he hired lawyers and believes that what is being said is to be the top priority. He took down that post, which was "sticky" when he made it. Many of us saw it.
Since I'm the one with his butt on the line tomorrow, let me make a couple of comments. I will be objective and factual. I won't do any name calling, I won't be emotional, and I'll just state the facts as I know them, and provide something like opinion about what happened, not the individuals. So if somebody asks "Do you think Steve is a megalomaniac?", my response will be "Why do you ask? Do you?" I am prepared to be personally attacked, and for off-topic questions that have nothing to do with this situation. They'll probably come from some cretin puppet, who will be too much of a coward to identify themselves. Or it will be somebody's spouse or relative. I expect that type of manipulation, and I'm ready for it. I plan on taking the high road. I hope they do the same, but somehow, I am not optimistic. And don't forget, if Steve would not have reneged on his commitment, I never would have done this.
I won't be able to listen - taking a weekend out of town, but I'm cheering for you in advance, Larry. You're smart and you'll do great!
I hope callers will use their names. Anonymous comments just don't mean a danged thing.
New internet seller group at http://internetsellersgroup.com/ Copy and paste it in your browser.
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